CLOVERS interview: Kamiya and Koyama talk Okami 2, industry layoffs, and a potential future with Capcom

It’s an understatement to say that a lot has happened in Hideki Kamiya’s world since I last met with him and his CLOVERS business partner Kento Koyama late last year.

In our previous interview, held over a Zoom call last December, the pair tacitly confirmed that they would be launching a new studio together, but they couldn’t tell me what they were working on, or which publisher they were partnering with.

Much to my surprise – I hadn’t even transcribed the interview on time – that news followed several weeks later, to the sound of a thunderous taiko drum, as Capcom’s Okami sequel – in development at Kamiya’s CLOVERS – was announced with great fanfare at the conclusion of The Game Awards 2024.

Even host Geoff Keighley was visibly emotional as he introduced a teaser trailer for the game, which is a follow-up to a cult classic that, like for many of those who played it in 2006, the TGA producer holds a great deal of affection for.

“Capcom was handling the operational side, so I hadn’t had any direct meetings with Geoff ahead of time,” Kamiya recalled, speaking to VGC at CLOVERS’ new studio in Osaka, Japan.

“But after the trailer played on stage, he went out of his way to not only introduce the new game, but also mention my name and our new studio, CLOVERS. He wasn’t simply showcasing it as a new title — he was making sure people understood who was making it and what kind of team we are. I was deeply grateful for that.”

Kamiya was recently able to meet Keighley for drinks, he said, and thanked him for how he handled The Game Awards coming-out party for not just Okami 2, but also CLOVERS – a dream venture for Kamiya after his shock exit from PlatinumGames, the company he co-founded nearly 20 years ago.

The thunderous beats of that Hollywood Taiko drum also signaled a kinetic endorsement from Capcom to their former employee, who, decades ago, gifted them some of the greatest hits in Resident Evil 2, Devil May Cry, and more.

“He wasn’t simply showcasing it as a new title — he was making sure people understood who was making it and what kind of team we are. I was deeply grateful for that.”

Kamiya is quick to stress that CLOVERS is funded by personal funds, but few independent developers enjoy this level of support from a publisher out of the gate, especially for a debut project that’s following up a game that, by its director’s own admission, was very well-received in 2006, but wasn’t exactly a sales phenomenon.

The designer told VGC he hopes to repay Capcom by delivering a game that earns an even deeper trust between the pair. “Of course, at the small scale we’re at right now, making this next Okami game is all that we can handle, but as we scale up and become bigger, hopefully that could mean potentially working on the next Okami game, or a new IP with another publisher, or another Capcom IP. Any of those possibilities would make us very happy.”

Read on for VGC’s full interview with CLOVERS Studio Head/Chief Game Designer Hideki Kamiya and President & CEO Kento Koyama.

The last time we spoke was in December, before the studio’s announcement at the Game Awards. At the time, you had about 20-25 people at the new studio. How have you expanded over the last 8 months?

Kamiya: At that time, we were in a meeting room in a temporary office. Since then, we’ve secured this office in Osaka and also one in Tokyo.

During your first year, what’s gone more easily than expected, and which challenges did you not expect?

Koyama: From my perspective as President & CEO, things are progressing smoothly overall. In particular, hiring has gone far better than I had imagined.

Kamiya: Everything is going so well with the growth of the company, but also what we want to accomplish creatively is also going well. So rather than saying anything has been difficult, it’s more accurate to say it’s just fun. Everything we’re doing right now is a lot of fun.

History suggests that it’s very difficult to build a team and a game at the same time. How are you trying to negate that, perhaps through ensuring you have familiar people around you?

Koyama: The biggest factor that’s helped things go smoothly is that the people who joined us from the very beginning, those who showed interest in what we were doing and wanted to be part of, all have the same mindset, the same spirit. It’s not like we did anything in particular to prevent what you were talking about from happening, but is simply that everyone is naturally aligned.

Kamiya: So you were saying that history shows it’s hard to develop a game and build a team at the same time, but actually, I think that’s the ideal situation.

For example, when you’re at a big company and you have a huge staff assigned to different projects, it might not be the best wording, but sometimes there are people who aren’t really necessary for that particular project. But for us, as Koyama mentioned, we have built a team of people who share the same mindset and the same spirit, and so that’s really the ideal situation for us.

When it comes to hiring, of course, skill is really important, but even more crucial is, like we were saying, having the same mindset, the same approach to creativity. I believe that hiring completely new people carries certain risks, but at present, most of our recruitment is referral-based, with colleagues recommending colleagues. The connections we’ve built over the years in the industry have been instrumental in building our team.

“Rather than saying anything has been difficult, it’s more accurate to say it’s just fun. Everything we’re doing right now is a lot of fun.”

Have you mainly been going for more experienced people initially, or what’s the mix between young staff and experienced staff?

Koyama: So the highly experienced members are about 80% of our team.

Kamiya: In Japan, we have Shinsotsu, which is the hiring of new graduates, but we’re not doing that type of hiring, so it’s mostly people who have had work experience.

That’s kind of what I was getting at: how important was it for you when you’re going out on your own again to have people around you who you understand how they work, and know their strengths? Did you intentionally look for people you’d worked with before?

Kamiya: Some members have a long history of working with me, but it’s not only about my own personal connections. New members who have recently joined also recommend talented people they’ve previously worked with, saying, “This person has the right mindset and solid skills.” Thanks to these connections, we’ve been able to steadily bring together more and more outstanding talent.

The Game Awards announcement was such a high-profile coming out for CLOVERS and your first game. What kind of reaction did you receive from the games industry since that reaction?

Koyama: My friends in the game industry, they said, ‘hey, we saw the announcement’. And because I hadn’t said anything about it, they were really surprised.

Kamiya: I was actually at the TGA venue, and I saw the announcement there, and I had kept it a secret as well, but when I checked my phone after the announcement, I had tons of notifications. Even from people that I hadn’t been in contact with for a while, I suddenly had a message from them.

It was quite an emotional moment, right? I mean, I remember you saying that you got quite emotional. Even Geoff Keighley on stage looked quite emotional.

Kamiya: Capcom was handling the operational side, so I hadn’t had any direct meetings with Geoff ahead of time. But after the trailer played on stage, he went out of his way to not only introduce the new game, but also mention my name and our new studio, CLOVERS. He wasn’t simply showcasing it as a new title — he was making sure people understood who was making it and what kind of team we are. I was deeply grateful for that.

Recently, I was able to meet Geoff for drinks. In my not-so-skilful English, I told him how much I appreciated the way he handled that part of the announcement for us. ‘Taiko drums? Good!’ (laughs)

It was one of the big end-of-show announcements, as you say, with a big production with the Taiko drums. Is that illustrative of Capcom’s commitment to this project that they put such a big splash on that announcement?

Kamiya: Of course, I already knew this was a major project for Capcom, and through my conversations with Mr Takeuchi and Mr. Hirabayashi I could strongly feel their passion for it. But even more than that, the presentation at The Game Awards made me sense Geoff’s passion even more strongly.

“Our company is funded solely by our own capital with no capital involvement from Capcom. This is our own company, so in that sense, there’s no financial connection to Capcom.”

So one other thing I wanted to ask about the announcement is that it obviously noted that CLOVERS is working with M-Two and Machine Head Works (MHW), which are two studios co-founded by Minami-san, who’s the former PlatinumGames CEO. What’s it been like working with him again?

Kamiya: The starting point of this project goes back to my long-standing friendship with Mr. Takeuchi and Mr. Hirabayashi. Over the years, we would often say to each other, “Let’s work together again someday.” When I left Platinum, that idea began to move closer to reality.

At that time, though, we didn’t even have a company yet, so setting one up and building a development environment was our first step. In that situation, being able to work with Mr. Minami and the staff at M-Two and MHW was an enormous help. They already had extensive development experience with Capcom, and some of them were people I had previously worked with at Capcom and/or PlatinumGames. Thanks to those connections, we’ve been able to get off to a really strong start.

Koyama: Because we were able to have this strong start to development, we’re really grateful to the M-Two and MHW team.

I know there’s only so much you can say right now about the project that you’re working on, it being Capcom’s title, but from your perspective of building the studio, how valuable has the support from Capcom been in getting this first project off the ground? You’re using its engine, which must be hugely beneficial, but you’re also working with other studios for this project.

Kamiya: Well, to say it simply, it’s really, really beneficial.

Could you have done it alone without Capcom? What kind of benefits do they bring to hiring staff, to finding an office, to the publicity etc? Would it have been a lot more difficult if you’d have gone solo and made it completely indie projects?

Kamiya: This company was founded with funds from Koyama and myself, and it wasn’t a very large amount. So that was the beginning, it was just us two, but then after going to Capcom and getting this Okami project, that is, of course, what allowed us to come into this office, hire staff, and to step up the way we have, and so it has been extremely beneficial to us.

You’ve mentioned previously that you don’t want to be a single-project studio; you want to move eventually to be able to work on multiple projects. So, looking ahead, is your future necessarily tied with Capcom for the long run, or will you maybe work with other companies or self-publish in the future?

Koyama: Yeah, certainly there is a possibility that in the future we’ll partner with other companies or publish on our own. But for now, our focus is on making Okami, the project we’ve been entrusted with.

Kamiya: I want to be clear about one thing, because I don’t want it to be misunderstood: Our company is funded solely by our own capital with no capital involvement from Capcom. This is our own company, so in that sense, there’s no financial connection to Capcom.

Which means that the possibilities are basically endless. We would of course be interested in working with different publishers as well, possibly through self-publishing, so that’s definitely part of our goal and strategy.

“As we scale up and become bigger, hopefully that could mean potentially working on the next Okami game, or a new IP with another publisher, or another Capcom IP.”

What does success look like for your first project? You’ve said yourself that Okami was a very critically well-received game that people fondly remember, but it perhaps didn’t sell so well. So what does success look like for this game, and how much is the studio’s future based on how it performs?

Kamiya: What we’re thinking as a company is, of course, success for our first project would be if the Okami sequel project is a big hit, has good sales, and becomes something that would make Capcom satisfied and make us trusted in their eyes.

Of course, at the small scale we’re at right now, making this next Okami game is all that we can handle, but as we scale up and become bigger, hopefully that could mean potentially working on the next Okami game, or a new IP with another publisher, or another Capcom IP. Any of those possibilities would make us very happy.

What I can say, from my own perspective as a director, is that this is the first time I’m directing a sequel to a game that I originally directed. Okami has a lot of support, there are a lot of fans, and people are expecting a lot, so my task is to be able to do something better, to go beyond what has already been delivered with the first Okami, so that’s what I want to achieve. If I can do that, I’ll consider it a true success.

I was going to ask that, actually: it’s your first direct sequel to any of your games. Obviously, you can’t speak too much about the project, but could touch on how strange it’s been working on a sequel versus a totally original project?

Kamiya: So I don’t know if this will answer your question, but with Bayonetta 2 and 3, and Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon, with those games, although I wasn’t the director, I supervised the series production. What I saw with those games was that, as each one was released, the fans’ idea of what Bayonetta is, and what a sequel should be, grew stronger.

That created a gap between what we at Platinum wanted to do and what fans expected from the now firmly established image of Bayonetta. It was a bit of a perplexing experience for me seeing how fans reacted when Bayonetta 3 was released.

So I don’t necessarily mean to fight that with the new Okami game, but it’s something that I’m trying to think more deeply about how to approach. It’s a very different kind of challenge compared to creating an original title. The one thing that I can say about making the Okami sequel is that it’s extremely fun. And just judging by the atmosphere of the office, I think everyone feels that way.

As somebody who experienced working on a game cancellation cancelled by Xbox, what were both of your reactions to seeing the recent layoffs and the project closures at Microsoft recently?

Kamiya: I think Koyama probably feels much the same as I do, but speaking as someone responsible for this company, I’m deeply grateful to all the colleagues who have gathered here at CLOVERS. Actually, even more so than when I was at Capcom or Platinum, because this is a company we built ourselves, starting with just a handful of people and growing one by one into the team we have today.

That’s why I feel a very strong responsibility to protect this place no matter what. That means that we can’t just say like, ‘oh, the project failed and didn’t go well, goodbye everyone’. We really have a deep commitment to keep the company going for these people, who we’re grateful to. Of course, I understand there are circumstances that force large companies to make layoffs, but for us, that’s a route that we don’t want to go down. We want to take care of our staff.

Of course, we’re a British gaming news site, and for the past few years, it’s felt like, on a daily basis, our headlines are related to western publishers and developers laying off staff, cancelling projects, or being closed – but we rarely see the same headlines related to Japanese publishers. In the triple-A space at least, games from the East have also dominated the awards scene in the past year as well. What does it feel like, from your office in Osaka, when you open social media and see the doomsday headlines on US and European news sites?

Koyama: In terms of the harsh realities of the game industry, I don’t think there’s much difference between overseas and Japan. I can’t say for sure since I don’t have deep experience in overseas development, but I feel that Japan does have a culture of respecting creators. In the West, I imagine there’s always a constant push and pull between marketing-driven decisions and creative decisions. For us, we feel like there is a willingness to place a bit more trust in the creative side.

“I understand there are circumstances that force large companies to make layoffs, but for us, that’s a route that we don’t want to go down. We want to take care of our staff.”

Kamiya: Speaking from a creative perspective, I’ve worked with Sega, Capcom, and Nintendo. And during my time at PlatinumGames, I also collaborated with Japanese publishers like Konami and Koei Tecmo, as well as overseas publishers such as Microsoft, Tencent, and Activision. What it feels like when working with Japanese publishers is that the development culture feels closer to mind, and they tend to be more understanding toward creators.

I think of game development as a kind of invention. For example, in Bayonetta we had Witch Time, in The Wonderful 101 we had Unite Morphs, and with Okami it was the Celestial Brush. My goal is always to build in a unique mechanic that only that game can have. On the Japanese side, my impression is that they see you’re trying to make a new invention. They understand the struggle of trying to give birth to something new, and they watch over the process with patience.

That’s where I see there’s a difference with publishers. For foreign companies, if you’re trying to invent something new, because the shape of it isn’t clear yet, there tends to be pressure, like “show us something that’s taken shape more. ” And if you look at the games themselves, like how first-person shooters were the popular thing for a while, I get the impression that they feel a sense of safety following an established format.

But with Scalebound, and this is information already out there, so I can say it, what we were trying to build was a system where the player controlled both a human protagonist and a dragon together in an adventure. But there was no clear reference or format for us to follow for a game like that. And I think that’s why it was easy for some to have doubts.

Do you think it would’ve gone differently if you had a Japanese publisher for Scalebound?

Kamiya: I do think it would’ve been different. I don’t mean that if it had been a Japanese publisher, the game would necessarily have been completed and released, but I imagine the process itself would have played out differently. Japanese companies tend to be more open to new challenges, and I think the conversations would have been more positive, like, “Okay, so how should we approach this together? For me personally, overseas publishers seem to have a much stronger desire to see a finished product as quickly as possible. If it had been a Japanese publisher, I feel they might have given us more leeway.

We’re talking about this specific title as an example; however, I don’t want there to be any misunderstanding: the failure of Scalebound was ultimately the responsibility of PlatinumGames, myself as director included. But because I have now experienced working with overseas publishers, I feel that if the opportunity ever comes again, we’ll find a way to take advantage of both sides’ strengths.

The last time we spoke, you mentioned that PlatinumGames didn’t have any advanced knowledge of your plans for this new studio. Now that we’re eight months further on, do you know what their reaction was, and what can you tell me about it?

Kamiya: I haven’t received any contact from them, officially or unofficially.

You also said on that, the last time we spoke, that the only thing that you were really concerned about is the teams you left behind at Platinum and whether they were doing well. Are you happy with how they’ve done their business since you left?

Kamiya: With regard to PlatinumGames and CLOVERS, I think the key point here is that the mindset towards game development is different. Not to say one is better, one is worse, one is good, one is bad, but they’re just different. And if the company and the individual don’t have the same mindset, then no one is happy.

So, for those who shared our mindset and said, “I want to work at CLOVERS!” my response was, “By all means, let’s work together, you’re welcome here.” And for those who stayed at Platinum, if their mindset matches the current company’s direction, then I think that’s perfectly fine too.